Comments on: Take the No Reboot Challenge http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/ Everyone can understand technology; sometimes it just takes a little translating. Tue, 14 Feb 2012 21:16:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: mathuehttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39917 mathue Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:58:28 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39917 I know first hand how Pocket PC/Windows CE got its reputation. When I sold these devices they were far more fussy than the equivalent Palm device (This is over a period from 2001 to 2006). Over that time I worked as a manager at a national but small retail chain that sold these devices, where I myself actually interacted with the customers and sold them as well. In 2005 as managers we were tasked with keeping track of the return rate of devices where there was _NO_ hardware failure. In other words, situations where the device wasn't physically defective. I no longer have my per model breakdown in its spreadsheet as it was wiped out by a corporate reinstall on my backroom computer, but I do have still have the ratio of returns per OS. On non-phone devices we would sell 14 PalmOS machines for every 1 returned device and 3 WinCE machines for every returned one. On mobile devices it was like this. Symbian OS, 10 for every 1 return, PalmOS 10 for every 1 and WinCE 2 for every 1. It got so bad that my employees started to ignore the Windows handhelds and mobiles when selling. (my employees were commissioned and returns hurt since they would loose the commission.) Now I'm sure that the current version of Windows Mobile has improved this, heck, they would have HAD to. I'm just saying that the reputation for the Windows handhelds was very well earned. : ) I know first hand how Pocket PC/Windows CE got its reputation. When I sold these devices they were far more fussy than the equivalent Palm device (This is over a period from 2001 to 2006). Over that time I worked as a manager at a national but small retail chain that sold these devices, where I myself actually interacted with the customers and sold them as well.

In 2005 as managers we were tasked with keeping track of the return rate of devices where there was _NO_ hardware failure. In other words, situations where the device wasn’t physically defective. I no longer have my per model breakdown in its spreadsheet as it was wiped out by a corporate reinstall on my backroom computer, but I do have still have the ratio of returns per OS.

On non-phone devices we would sell 14 PalmOS machines for every 1 returned device and 3 WinCE machines for every returned one.

On mobile devices it was like this. Symbian OS, 10 for every 1 return, PalmOS 10 for every 1 and WinCE 2 for every 1.

It got so bad that my employees started to ignore the Windows handhelds and mobiles when selling. (my employees were commissioned and returns hurt since they would loose the commission.)

Now I’m sure that the current version of Windows Mobile has improved this, heck, they would have HAD to. I’m just saying that the reputation for the Windows handhelds was very well earned. : )

]]> By: Take the No Reboot Challenge! at WindowsMobile Coolhttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39302 Take the No Reboot Challenge! at WindowsMobile Cool Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:46:25 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39302 [...] mobile bloggers (other than yours truly, of course) have taken up the challenge as well including Chris Spera of Gear Diary and Dieter Bohn from [...] [...] mobile bloggers (other than yours truly, of course) have taken up the challenge as well including Chris Spera of Gear Diary and Dieter Bohn from [...]

]]> By: sixftundahttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39260 sixftunda Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:16:11 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39260 Where's the challenge here? I leave my phone on 24/7 and can't remember the last time I rebooted. WM is stable. I don't run more than 3-4 apps and they are almost always from reputable companies like pocketmax or sbsh (not that there aren't other good software makers). It has been this way for me with the i730/i760/Touch. Where’s the challenge here? I leave my phone on 24/7 and can’t remember the last time I rebooted. WM is stable. I don’t run more than 3-4 apps and they are almost always from reputable companies like pocketmax or sbsh (not that there aren’t other good software makers). It has been this way for me with the i730/i760/Touch.

]]> By: Ilium Software Blog » Blog Archive » The Trouble With the No Reboot Challengehttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39259 Ilium Software Blog » Blog Archive » The Trouble With the No Reboot Challenge Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:50:04 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39259 [...] me start by saying I think it’s great that Mike at Mobile Jaw and Chris from GearDiary are doing this. It’s a neat idea and I’m looking forward to the results. At the same [...] [...] me start by saying I think it’s great that Mike at Mobile Jaw and Chris from GearDiary are doing this. It’s a neat idea and I’m looking forward to the results. At the same [...]

]]> By: Tyler Pucketthttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39165 Tyler Puckett Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:28:13 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39165 I have a Palm Centro that I have had to hard reset once because the Handmark application caused a reset loop. Other than that, it's been rock-solid stable. I'm extremely pleased with the device. I have a Palm Centro that I have had to hard reset once because the Handmark application caused a reset loop.

Other than that, it’s been rock-solid stable. I’m extremely pleased with the device.

]]> By: mcsouthhttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39144 mcsouth Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:48:01 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39144 I guess I've got to go with Christopher Gavula on this one - I'm not sure that I see the point to this exercise, other than to possibly prove that some WM implementations on some hardware are, in fact, stable. I do know for a fact that my 8125 has some 3rd party software installed, but very little. I also know that I have to routinely reboot the unit every few days to a week in order to regain phone reception, and especially to get EDGE working again. 95% of the time, my phone is running with only one 3rd party app actually up and running after the reboot - GOOD Messaging, which my company uses as its solution with our Exchange server. I've used WM since the PPC2002 days, but this is my first WM smartphone - I've had it for about 18 months now. I love the connectivity, but I have less and less patience with WM and its limitations. Issues have existed for years that MS has simply not dealt with, or taken forever to deal with. Yes, I may feel differently if I had WM6.1 instead of WM5, but I have to live with what I have. Under the circumstances, MS hasn't done a good job of convincing me that my personal smartphone should run WM. I guess I’ve got to go with Christopher Gavula on this one – I’m not sure that I see the point to this exercise, other than to possibly prove that some WM implementations on some hardware are, in fact, stable.

I do know for a fact that my 8125 has some 3rd party software installed, but very little. I also know that I have to routinely reboot the unit every few days to a week in order to regain phone reception, and especially to get EDGE working again. 95% of the time, my phone is running with only one 3rd party app actually up and running after the reboot – GOOD Messaging, which my company uses as its solution with our Exchange server.

I’ve used WM since the PPC2002 days, but this is my first WM smartphone – I’ve had it for about 18 months now. I love the connectivity, but I have less and less patience with WM and its limitations. Issues have existed for years that MS has simply not dealt with, or taken forever to deal with. Yes, I may feel differently if I had WM6.1 instead of WM5, but I have to live with what I have. Under the circumstances, MS hasn’t done a good job of convincing me that my personal smartphone should run WM.

]]> By: Mitchell Okehttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39143 Mitchell Oke Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:05:45 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39143 Some Windows Mobile devices would be capable of surviving for a week without rebooting, but not all. I think that some of the customisations made to Windows Mobile by OEMs and operators is part of the stability problem. For the record my E71 has been running 8 days rebootless and has no signs of throwing in the towel :D I only ever turn it off when I need to swap the SIM into another phone for review :P Some Windows Mobile devices would be capable of surviving for a week without rebooting, but not all. I think that some of the customisations made to Windows Mobile by OEMs and operators is part of the stability problem.

For the record my E71 has been running 8 days rebootless and has no signs of throwing in the towel :D I only ever turn it off when I need to swap the SIM into another phone for review :P

]]> By: Christopher Sperahttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39140 Christopher Spera Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:39:04 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39140 I think the point of all of this is to point out to MS that there may be holes in the SDK, or in some of the memory management routines so that they correct one, the other , both; or (somehow) enforce tighter code on the part of 3rd party developers. Any way you try to crack this nut, its coming down to memory management and optimization. MS has a hand in this, and will need to do something about it. Developers will need to cooperate, participate and insure that their products don't introduce (additional) instability. Its gotta start somewhere, and if Mike (and those that participate) can help show that a somewhat vanilla device can demonstrate this, I, for one, will support that. (hense, my participation...) I think the point of all of this is to point out to MS that there may be holes in the SDK, or in some of the memory management routines so that they correct one, the other , both; or (somehow) enforce tighter code on the part of 3rd party developers.

Any way you try to crack this nut, its coming down to memory management and optimization. MS has a hand in this, and will need to do something about it. Developers will need to cooperate, participate and insure that their products don’t introduce (additional) instability.

Its gotta start somewhere, and if Mike (and those that participate) can help show that a somewhat vanilla device can demonstrate this, I, for one, will support that. (hense, my participation…)

]]> By: mchinskyhttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39139 mchinsky Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:54:06 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39139 This is the crux of most Microsoft Bashing. People say "linux never crash", macs never crash etc. No modern OS needs reboots other than for push down patch installation. The issue is 99% third parties. The reason linux is so stable, is people install (because so few are available) many third party applications and system extensions. My Treo is very stable...and has very little functionality. But with all my apps that make it killer, yes I have to reboot once in a while. How often did you have to reboot your PS1? NES? never because they were fixed on functionality at the factory. But the new consoles are dynamically updated, allow you to install new apps etc, and I'm sure can now become less stable. So to summarize, stop saying Windows, or xxx is buggy, as it's almost always the third party stuff and that simply is a fact of life for choice. This is the crux of most Microsoft Bashing. People say “linux never crash”, macs never crash etc.

No modern OS needs reboots other than for push down patch installation. The issue is 99% third parties.

The reason linux is so stable, is people install (because so few are available) many third party applications and system extensions.

My Treo is very stable…and has very little functionality. But with all my apps that make it killer, yes I have to reboot once in a while.

How often did you have to reboot your PS1? NES? never because they were fixed on functionality at the factory. But the new consoles are dynamically updated, allow you to install new apps etc, and I’m sure can now become less stable.

So to summarize, stop saying Windows, or xxx is buggy, as it’s almost always the third party stuff and that simply is a fact of life for choice.

]]> By: Christopher Gavulahttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39137 Christopher Gavula Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:40:38 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39137 So basically we're saying that the OS is stable but the apps are what's breaking things? Isn't that supposed to be the big "perk" of running WM - the apps? If so - why would this test be of any value? If the OS isn't propersly sandboxing the apps then it isn't doing it's job. If the SDK isn't designed to keep developers from getting outside the lines then it isn't designed propery. I believe that apps are likely the source of a lot of WM woes and iPhone woes, but that doesn't excuse the OS from not isolating those things correctly - sorry. So basically we’re saying that the OS is stable but the apps are what’s breaking things? Isn’t that supposed to be the big “perk” of running WM – the apps? If so – why would this test be of any value? If the OS isn’t propersly sandboxing the apps then it isn’t doing it’s job.

If the SDK isn’t designed to keep developers from getting outside the lines then it isn’t designed propery.

I believe that apps are likely the source of a lot of WM woes and iPhone woes, but that doesn’t excuse the OS from not isolating those things correctly – sorry.

]]> By: MikeTemporalehttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39134 MikeTemporale Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:59:13 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39134 Hey Chris, Thanks for taking up the challenge. Don't forget - there's no killing or stopping any applications. You need to let Windows Mobile do it's own memory management. ;) Currently, my task manager shows 5 programs running using just over 20MB of memory. IE Mobile is using 17MB alone! :( No problems so far. We'll see how it goes. Hey Chris, Thanks for taking up the challenge. Don’t forget – there’s no killing or stopping any applications. You need to let Windows Mobile do it’s own memory management. ;)

Currently, my task manager shows 5 programs running using just over 20MB of memory. IE Mobile is using 17MB alone! :( No problems so far. We’ll see how it goes.

]]> By: breleyhttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39132 breley Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:19:51 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39132 This will be interesting to keep an eye on, Chris. My X7501 and SCH-I760 seem to require a reset, every couple of days or so, and they are loaded up with plenty of 3rd party apps. However, my E-TEN X800, very spartanly laid out, almost never locks up. I do know that for a long while my X7501 was pretty lean on the loaded apps, but after installing a number of Today plugins and apps isn't quite as stable as it used to be. After the end of judging in August I'm going to clean off my two offending devices and keep them much leaner. This will be interesting to keep an eye on, Chris. My X7501 and SCH-I760 seem to require a reset, every couple of days or so, and they are loaded up with plenty of 3rd party apps. However, my E-TEN X800, very spartanly laid out, almost never locks up. I do know that for a long while my X7501 was pretty lean on the loaded apps, but after installing a number of Today plugins and apps isn’t quite as stable as it used to be. After the end of judging in August I’m going to clean off my two offending devices and keep them much leaner.

]]> By: MarkRoddishttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39130 MarkRoddis Wed, 20 Aug 2008 08:24:20 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39130 I must admit that my HTC 710 with WM6 has not had a reboot for many months now. Again it syncs with exchange, runs various applications, syncs with my laptop, and my desktop and is used as a true business tool. My previous WM phone was the same. I keep bashing on that WM is THE OS for all these new netbooks rather than Linux or even Windows XP because it is a true lightweight embeded OS BUT it does have all your Office apps etc (the real business tools) embeded as well. All MS need is to spend a bit of time tuning their Live platform to support this (PS Mesh is now kind of available on WM as well) and I think we have a winner I must admit that my HTC 710 with WM6 has not had a reboot for many months now. Again it syncs with exchange, runs various applications, syncs with my laptop, and my desktop and is used as a true business tool.

My previous WM phone was the same.

I keep bashing on that WM is THE OS for all these new netbooks rather than Linux or even Windows XP because it is a true lightweight embeded OS BUT it does have all your Office apps etc (the real business tools) embeded as well.

All MS need is to spend a bit of time tuning their Live platform to support this (PS Mesh is now kind of available on WM as well) and I think we have a winner

]]> By: arebelspyhttp://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39127 arebelspy Wed, 20 Aug 2008 04:36:05 +0000 http://www.geardiary.com/2008/08/19/take-the-no-reboot-challenge/#comment-39127 mmm... nah. i'd rather have awesome apps and do a 30-second reboot every few days than save that 30 seconds by not rebooting, but not get extra cool apps. mmm… nah.

i’d rather have awesome apps and do a 30-second reboot every few days than save that 30 seconds by not rebooting, but not get extra cool apps.

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